Logic Times
Comments
Page Two
God and Time
January 30, 2005 11:57pm EST
God being outside logic is an interesting comment (made by Paul). The Word is the manifestation of God in our realm, which is Christ. The Word translates from the Greek word for logic and explains not only order in the universe but in our minds. Logic is our foundation for understanding everything. However, God who created our realm does not need to be constrained by it, I suppose; which is the same thing I've said about time.
As this relates to your need (theory?) to have God constrain Himself by time in order for free will to play out, I still wonder why. If He can do that, He cannot have one foot in and one foot outside time.
Another question for you: what space-time parameters do you think Heaven has? Christ returned to Earth and walked through doors and yet ate fish. True, He is not us and we may not become what He is, but might the description of His visit give us a hint?
{Aslan: Your first two paragraphs highlight what I think is largely a semantic argument, as I review with James immediately below. However, your third paragraph presents a challenge I had not thought of before. Here, I must make an important distinction between absolute ontological time and time as a dimension of spacetime. The former concept is not a dimension or a limitation, but an absolute reference point. As I say in my essay:
There is a physics distinction between time and measured time, and I make that distinction here. While a spaceman traveling near the speed of light is experiencing profound time dilation, he has an existence relative to every other measurer of time on the continuum, but he is still captive to an absolute time reference. The measurements vary, but there is an ontological point in time (God’s frame of reference) that does not.
I think this may address the idea of spacetime limits in your last paragraph.}
5: James A. Weaks
February 22, 2005 4:06pm EST
Just some thoughts...
As a student of both logic and God, I don't see how God could possibly be within time or choose to be constrained by time. This simply does not fit with what He tells us about Himself. I also object to the conclusion that election and determination must be denied for moral choice to be accepted.
A God above and beyond time could logically conceive both election/determination and a free moral choice for man.
If what the Word tells us about our fallen nature is true, then a world without His election and determination means that no one will go to Heaven.
I enjoy your site. It's one of my frequent stops online.
{Aslan: Thanks for your kind words. You have a thoughtful site as well at a nail in His place.
I admit that my proposal seems to be vulnerable on Biblical grounds. However, please note that the model fits extremely well with the conflict presented by time-independence and free will and in no way limits the Creator, who maintains freedom and complete foreknowledge.
However, being vulnerable on Biblical grounds is no small matter. It is here that I would suggest that the differences may be more semantic than substantive. Apparent conflicts such as with Paul in Titus, "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time," and 2 Peter "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day," do not necessarily demand a timeless God, but a God not shackled by time. In my proposal, God "redefines" existence to allow for free will, but remains free and unlimited in His options.
Well, this is thankfully not a central doctrinal point!
As for election, I am going to refrain from tackling that one here, since I am presenting non-Christian apologetics on Logic Times. There are many subtle gradations of election, some of with which I am not uncomfortable, and some I must reject.}
6: Nicholas Scott
February 26, 2006 2:37am EST
What I reckon is that God being outside of time does not invalidate free will. Mainly because I don't see time as a strip of celluloid film - a sequential series of events that can't be changed. When God created the world, he knew the results of every possible choice. Every choice is a fork in the road- it's up to us to determine which one to walk down.
(Aslan: Each decision at the fork in the road results in a reality and many non-realities, or "could-have-beens." For example, let’s say the fork in the road today is what color to paint your house. You choices are many, but you decide on green. The choice of green paint manifests itself firmly as real – you purchase green paint, you dip your brush in the can of green paint, you paint with that color and admire that color and how it blends with the other colors of the house. The color red – with its different reality, its unique clash with the color of the shutters and roof – does not have a reality.
God created all reality throughout time. He did not create un-realities. At that initial moment, God stood outside of time and created all the realities that are the fruit of our choices. He did not create the unrealities. Before the painter was born, He brought into being the green paint on the house and not the red. What choice did the painter have then?
The only other idea is yours – that there are these parallel realities and we choose which road we travel. Personally, that is so hard to get my mind around that I prefer the idea that God voluntarily constrains himself within time.}