Logic Times
Comments
Page Two
The Problem of Natural Evil, Part One
2: TElder1
May 30, 2005 11:33pm EST
continued
Now it would have a very easy thing for God to defend His Own genuine innocence--to have killed the doubts of His accusers and preserve His bodily well being. But where would we be without His sacrifice for us?
You have answered the liars as if their speech were the same as yours and valid (as if there were only one speech in total reality and all of you collectively could "use it" to "describe God" to a non-born again soul)--as if non-creating speech were a possible tool to be used to elevate a non-born again soul to a place where God would be understood and as if you were not new creation yourself. You have erred greatly, seduced by the need to defend your supposed "mind" against their accusations/speech. The only possible reason for the defense of your "own" mind against the mind of Christ is so that your "own" mind could shop in Satan's store through the use of Satan's speech. Their poison has seduced you. That is a much worse poisonous snake than you suppose. But God says this:
Hebrews 12:2-8: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
The non-creating speech of liars is of no profit to them or you but only brings and performs destruction. Why then would you speak it to them as an "answer"? They must be born again--and the speech they grew up with and in which they die cannot do that. The only Word that can is God Himself.
God creates through Himself as Word. Satan comes immediately behind and screams "Method! Technology!" in a speech not-God that can't create anything and so thinks it "logically inevitable" that God didn't create anything and that Satan has spoken truth. Do not be deceived.
Isaiah 48:5-8 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them. Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
{Aslan: Wow. I am not sure what to make of this. There is non-creating speech and there is incomprehensible speech.
You declare all revelation outside the Word as devoid of the Word and therefore deceptive, the tool of evil. That is nonsense.
Romans 1 "19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
We all have gifts that serve God and God desires we employ them. These gifts take the form of unique abilities that aid in evangelism.
1 Corinthians 12 "4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines."
To conclude that every non-Biblical utterance that comes from the mouth of Man is devoid of value to God goes against Scripture and against Creation.
No question that a slavish devotion to proofs and the mind – things that oppose faith in principle – is a dangerous path to tread. Also true that the Spirit must move someone to faith. But the road to faith is winding and varied and we can help along that road.}
3: Larry Horacek
May 31, 2005 1:23am EST
Great story ending! I'm still smiling. The issue of natural evil is imagined within the parameters of our human thought. But just as hell is less about fire and brimstone and more about the absence of God (real truth), natural evil is necessary to provide us choice. Besides, our time on earth is not the reason for existence; earth is merely a part of our eternal existence. If all there was to my existence was here on earth, I would definitely feel cheated if I was the one who got leukemia as a child and died an early death. But there's more...a lot more...and part of that equation is the role of evil. Deal with it, conquer it. That's what God wants.
{Aslan: Larry, I needed an e-mail from you after that one above. You hit the nail on the head in very short order.}
4: TElder1
June 2, 2005 12:42pm EST
Aslan,
"We all have gifts that serve God and God desires we employ them. These gifts take the form of unique abilities that aid in evangelism..."
...scripture "proof"...
There is genuine new birth in Jesus Christ. In that new birth God sends the Spirit of His Word to us as new creatures in Him and speaks through us. This is very plain.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
God speaks at all times through all His servants as Himself as Word and is not limited to the Scriptures. That is, God is actual Word and alive. You have wrongly assumed I was speaking on my own and in non-creating speech.
So this is where we are: you earnestly and with your best honesty truly think that you have free will--that God has given you "units of power" that are NOT His spirit but some 'x' that can be anything but God Himself as Word. You also think that the Scriptures are holy but that holy is in essence a lesser perfect and life than God Himself and as such are mere 'information' and above all else are not alive and not God Himself as Word. Not only that, but in order to think of yourself as a genuine living being (with the 'use' of the 'units of power' God has supposedly given you that are not Himself) you must have some autonomy and that autonomy is the only thing which can prove you an independent and therefore (in your eyes) legitimate living being and not a 'robot'. You resent the very truth that as new creations in Jesus Christ He alone performs through us what He commands--that He is actually alive in us right now and Speaking. As well, the non-creating speech in your flesh can do no other than constantly deny that God speaks through any so that you always appear to be searching for God and doing for God in His absence rather than IN Christ when in fact that lying spirit in your flesh (that is not you but which you have been deceived is your fundamental personality) is actively trying to dodge His voice by constraining Him to the Scriptures. Supposedly, God is everywhere you are not else your 'free will' is trampled. Yet it is plain that to you the scriptures are just 'holy info' that is not God as well but something which you can 'analyze' with a mind not-God and not the mind of Christ.
You own speech, non-creating speech, can run toward "mystery", then "incomprehensible", then "paradox", then "conundrum" but in the end, it becomes plain that in order to continue on your path of "I must have independence from God at all times to prove I'm a legitimate being/I've got 'free will'/"units of power not-God" so I can 'evangelize' in such a way as to not create anything (when God has plainly said genuine new birth in Him as Word is required and any other than actual and non-metaphorical new birth is of the anti-Christ) the ignorances your speech uses as defense will turn out to be very intelligently placed and a very stratetgic use is made of them to go around in a circle of "paradox", "mystery" and "orthodoxy" so as to have the appearance of making "interesting conversation."
As for non-regenerate man knowing anything of God, God has closed their eyes and their ears. For He very plainly says as creating what He speaks and as spirit and life (and NOT as 'holy info')
2 Thess 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
therefore:
1Corithians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned;
John 12:39,40 On this account they could not believe, because Esaias said again, He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they may not see with their eyes, and understand with their heart and be converted, and I should heal them.
"To conclude that every non-Biblical utterance that comes from the mouth of Man is devoid of value to God goes against Scripture and against Creation."
That was the non-creating 'conclusion' of that speech in your flesh--not God through me. What that spirit in your flesh wrote was based on the lie of free will in non-creating speech--not what God wrote through me. That speech in your flesh has lied and tries to extend his own powerlessness to all in order to have the appearance of defending what he said. God spoke through me. May He speak through you.
{Aslan: Tim, you have made a judgment about the origin of my speech, that it is “non-creating,” not of God. Interestingly, you acknowledge a couple key points –
- "God sends the Spirit of His Word to us as new creatures in Him and speaks through us."
- "He is actually alive in us right now and Speaking."
Yet, you argue, by some calculus that you have not revealed, that my words are non-creating and of the flesh. That the Spirit is not in me. This is a remarkable power you possess, to declare which speech is "creating" and which is "non-creating," to know when the Spirit has spoken through another and when the person is simply an over-weaning fool deceived by the fallen world.
Matthew 7 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Luke 6 37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged.
Psalms 13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.
Be careful in your judgments, Tim.}